JTT,

Everything that you just said is very sound advice. If there is one thing that I admire about you, it is your ability to stay level regardless of the situation. These sort of things really disturb me, though, I must admit. Don't get me wrong, I can definitely separate the individual human (s) from humankind on the whole and see the differences between one and the other.

I definitely understand your point about balance, we see it every day! You have your people out there that are retired, have good money, and you will see them chair community interest groups, volunteer at the hospital, work with underpriviledged kids and do all of those things. These people do not just give their time, they give themselves.

On the other hand, you have your sadistic rapists, homicidal maniacs and everything like that. The average human being, of course, falls somewhere in the middle of these two extremes.

That's one reason I so strongly support the death penalty. Obviously, you have a certain bell-curve as it relates to individual people vs. people on the average and all of these sadistic motherfuckers fall on the less than 3 percentile of this curve, I would have to say. Obviously, the ones that are philanthropic or otherwise giving that are outliers can remain, but we need to get rid of the outliers on the wrong end of the spectrum.

You take the person that came up with this game as well as the people that produced and distributed it, that has death penalty all over it as far as I am concerned. I think that we should also consider the death penalty for anyone who has played this game that is a legal adult, obviously some kids might not know any better. People think that video games are fun (generally) because video games represent something that is romantic or, at the very least, highly entertaining that the player wishes he could do him/her self.

It represents desire.

That's why it is obvious that the majority (if not all) of the players of this game have at least a passing interest in what the experience of raping someone would be like. They are interested in raping someone, perhaps they have thought about it.

Perhaps, if unchecked, they will do it.

So all of these people play a game of this nature and they give us that incite into themselves and their desires. They are essentially providing us with advance notice that this is an act they may be capable of. So, if you have something like this going around on an illegal and underground basis, I believe that these people should be seized and psychologically examined.

If it is shown that the subject is mentally fine and believed himself to be just playing a harmless game, release him.

If it shown that the subject outwardly exhibits a desire to commit acts of rape upon others, kill him.

Stop the problem before it starts.

Sleeper,

I'm sorry, but I can only buy part of your "solution". As some wise person once said, "We all have thoughts that would shame hell." Role play is one of the best learning tools we have, and that includes all the nasty stuff as well. Let's take two game players who decide to play this rape scenario. Number one likes the power, the sex/violence, the domination. Number two plays it out and is abhorred at the negative feelings he has. He feels ashamed and dirty. Both have had a learning experience. One may be attracted to more of the same, the other will never again think of comitting such an act. But both played the game, both learned from it. So it isn't that simple. I have a healthy distrust of the "psychological" tests. The opportunities for mis-reading potential as actual says too many errors are possible.

It may be unfortunate, but society waits for how an individual acts out, not their potential acts, but what they actually do.

Wildebeest and lions share the same territory. The grazers know that the lions will attack at some point, and that one of their members will die. So too human society tolerates potential until it is acted upon. This may be horrific for the individual, but the society endures.

We have to be careful in our attempts to eradicate evil. If we were to succeed, then how would we know good? A healthy society is one where the angels win most of the time, but the devils are never completely vanquished.

There are many role playing "games" that I consider well past the pale and I question the mental state of those who enjoy this garbage, but the final arbiter between fantasy and reality is in how the individual acts out.

But as soon as they act out rape in real life, kill 'em.

I think this is true. I was talking to a friend of mine about that RapeLay game, and she subsequently sent me this link: http://unquietmind.com/rape.html Now, first I have to say I have no idea if this guy is representative of anyone other than himself. I think it’s doubtful that he represents your average man - I don’t even know if this is an honest and sincere story, it could very well be fake. But if he is being honest about his own personal feelings, well, I don’t think his thoughts in and of themselves merit punishment. He doesn’t present himself like someone who would ever act on those negative thoughts. It is unnerving to me that his mind would even go there, but don’t we all have, to varying degrees, some darkness within us? Whether or not we follow that darkness is up to us.

The encouragement of those feelings, though, through video games or whatever, I find truly nauseating. I don’t know that it would actually influence someone to act who wasn’t already predisposed to do so, but I sure think it sends the wrong message to promote it as something fun to do. It makes my skin crawl that there are those who find that entertaining, and it makes me wonder if it colors their subsequent interactions with women.

But as horrifying as those “games” are, JT is right, we can’t incarcerate someone because of what they might do – where would we draw the line?

Anita,

An interesting link. Other than the man's observations, the story about Mr. Payne is true. It happened here in Boise, Idaho. I could show you the park where he raped the two girls, the parking lot at BSU where he accosted the woman he killed. I could even drive you by the place where he hid her body. All of this occured within a 25 mile radius of where I live. I don't recall the trial and sentencing of this man, but I assume he is on death row. It is a waste of time, effort, and money. Whatever his mental problems, the solution was a quick death by whatever means available. The lives of those family and friends of the victims have been altered forever and they need closure. To know that this person is incarcerated isn't enough. He is still here. Get him gone.

As to the thoughts of rape being in every man? I question that. Of course, anecdotal observations allow us to say anything we like, accuracy being the first victim. I can see that a female's actions can stir strong negative reactions, but I see no connect with using rape as a tool of vengeance or retribution. Some men? Certainly. But all men harboring those thoughts? I think the man is over-stating the possibilities just a bit.

That's what I'm talking about!!!

As far as all the others are concerned, if games like this are made completely illegal and you play one, then whatever happens to you as a result is an assumed risk of doing something that is illegal in the first place. Therefore, occasionally you may kill someone that would have never ended up raping anyone by mistake.

Collateral damage.

JT ,
That is a sad, sad case. I didn't know any of those details - what would make a person do something like that? And I definitely did NOT mean to say I agreed with what that man said - in no way, shape or form have I ever thought that his view was typical. I only used that as an example to show that someone's thoughts do not necessarily lead to actions, so how could they be punishable?

Sleeper,
I can't tell if you're serious or not, but hopefully you are not quite so indifferent to collateral damage?

I was pretty much joking.

The whole thing would never work unless psychology becomes an exact science which won't happen.

On the other hand, you could always make it an offense warranting capital punishment to play such a game if the game were made illegal.

Then, it wouldn't be collateral damage, it would be the law.

Although I too dream of enacting legislation that would set things right, the law you suggest would not withstand constitutional scrutiny. A sentence of death for playing a video game -even the worst video game imaginable- would clearly violate the 8th amendment's prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment.

Death is not unusual, happens to everyone.

Death must also not be cruel, and if it is, it is a cruelty that must be endured as it happens to everyone.

I don't know what the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote that; my personal belief is that they were referring to physical or mental torture or public embarassment/humiliation, but I could be wrong. We also borrowed the phrasing from Mother England who came up with such phrasing due to punsihments inflicted upon a man named Titus Oates.

Sleeper,

Punishment must be comensurate with the crime. I doubt that you could sell the death penalty to anyone for watching a video. But if they act out that video, then it is a different issue. Just as we presume innocence without proof of guilt, we presume civility until there is an act contrary. There is no way around that fact in a so-called free society.

Playing god is a serious business best not left to humans...

I can't sell anyone on the death penalty for anything other than killing someone, and even then, I am sometimes unsuccessful.

It's a cost/benefit thing, are people more interested in so-called freedom, or civility, peace, order and prosperity. They'd take freedom, at least to a certain extent.

I wish we could somehow quanitfy this whole thing and just get rid of the people outside of the third standard deviation right off the bat, it would make things much easier.

Well, this thread has been talking about deviancy with a negative impact on individuals and society alike. But remember, that many of the positive innovations in society also come from those who deviate from social norms. The high school "rebels" often turn to positive life goals, and probably in greater numbers than those who choose the dark side. A dynamic society requires deviants. I know. I are one.

But that is the problem; How to sort out the good from the bad. The psychobabble crowd would have us believe that through their magic, they can predict who will turn which direction. But the exceptions are much greater than the rule. We all know someone who should have succeeded wildly. They came from good family, access to all the right opportunities, and they end up in jail or dead. Conversely, we know or have heard of the person who came from the most dire circumstances and succeeded in spite of their environment. Who chooses for whom? The human animal isn't as predictable as the controllers would like, and may it ever be that way...

Dying happens to everyone; being killed by another person or group of people does not.

I don't know exactly what the drafters of the Constitution had in mind, but I do know that the Supreme Court has limited the instances in which the death penalty can be applied, and the basis for this limitation is the eighth amendment.

I think they take a very liberal translation as to the purpose of the Eighth Amendment, but that is just my opinion.

At various times, the Supreme Court has had a very liberal (in the "open" sense) translation of nearly everything that has come before it, which has led to a Constitution, as it pertains to individual liberties, that means very little and has virtually no bite left. In attempting to make things better for individuals, it has nearly always made things worse. Miranda -- seriously!!! If you tell me rights, I'm in better shape ... really? No, you're not.

My point: We have to play the game on the field we're on.

My hope: Our laws must represent how we desire people to be treated. And most of us aren't absolutely sure that anything aside from murder should result in death.