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 Qualia Part I. 
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
matty wrote:
I'd like to point out that I'm not necessarily calling for the specifically Spinozan discourse here, but I have been drawn to some of these issues by the kind of philosophy that I'm reading at the minute.

I accept that we won't be able to abstract the philosophy from the scientific or anecdotal methodologies entirely, but I think it is worth trying to create a type of philosophy that is not reliant on another type of discourse for its justification - just as those other discourses need not rely on philosophy to mediate between them.

I'm not frightened by the idea of metaphysics and I don't think that it has to mean woolly or wishful thinking.

Let me venture an example of the kind of thing I'm getting at here.

Imagine looking in the mirror - should be very easy, my guess is that you do it every day (probably less than a vain creature like me, but still). When you look in the mirror, what do you see? There are lots of possible answers to that question, which would require a variety of different modes of expression. You might say that you see yourself as you are at that moment, or you might focus on particular features of your reflection (depending on the activity you're in the process of undertaking), or possibly you focus on your sense of your image as it has developed (over days, months or perhaps years). The more prosaic amongst us might possibly consider the biological, chemical or even physical grounding of those impressions. It doesn't matter, the point is that there are multiple different ways of looking at oneself in the mirror. Science, art, religion, etc. - these are concerned with the ways of looking. What I'm wondering is if philosophy, as third discourse, shouldn't be concerned with the act of looking itself, the singular unity of those multiple moments.

Yes! :K:

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Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:53 pm
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
Ierrellus wrote:
Edelman, Tononi and Damasio, three respected neuroscientists, agree with Ricoueur that each human has a unique perspective of awareness by virtue of specific embodiment. Ricoeur's second objection to the "third discourse" has to do with reductionism as looking at development backwards, as observing development from a higher level of complexity and attempting to describe what is happening on a lower level.


If I've understood the bits of Ricoeur's work that I have read, and I'd like to think so, then I would say that it is the form and not the content of our experiences that he thought we were able to share - your experience of a sunset is not commensurate to mine, but we are both experiencing a sunset nevertheless. Tab was onto something when he referred to grammar as a meta-language, because in this sense that's exactly what philosophy is - a meta-physics. Likewise, jtt is quite right to say that there is no linguistic form to express this kind of philosophy, or rather that in our efforts we get caught up in a linguistic labyrinth, yet it is exactly the kind of philosophy that presses at these limits that excites me. (Aren't the conditions that a neuroscientist like Ramachandran studies exactly the sort of limit-experiences that this philosophy should be interested in?)

Ierrellus wrote:
The problem of seeing a disconnect between the specific and the general, IMHO, appears in the literature of neuroscience as a monkey wrench thrown into the machinery of discovering a common matter to mind trajectory, which seems to be the holy grail of scientists who dare comment on consciousness.
Uniqueness from embodiment is a matter of position in time and space. I cannot inhabit your body. Still, I cannot see how a "privileged" position could yield an awareness that no other human, living or dead, has ever experienced. Doesn't our knowledge entail agreement on generals comprised of specifics? On what is common? Disagreement won't contribute to splicing the atom or the gene.


The problems I see are the terms "specific" and "general" themselves - they are, in a Deleuzian sense, mediative, representational. It's not that you and I can share our experience of the sunset because we are both part of a generalised category like humanity (or sophistry, perhaps!) and therefore somehow destined to agree at some approximate level of understanding. Rather, we provide individuated responses to a set of problems posed by the sunset, responses that we develop through processes rather than by stumbling across the answer lying in wait.

I probably need to come back to this, but that'll do for now... :x:

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Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:36 am
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
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Rather, we provide individuated responses to a set of problems posed by the sunset, responses that we develop through processes rather than by stumbling across the answer lying in wait.

How would we determine this set of problems that is any different than what is conventional philosophical methodology? How would you mesh individuated responses through processes? Process begins with an agreed upon set of assumptions and an agreed upon narrow perspective.

I'm not seeing anything different than conventional philosophy here. What am I missing?


Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:16 pm
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
jtt wrote:
How would we determine this set of problems that is any different than what is conventional philosophical methodology?


We don't "determine" them, they're problems - that's exactly the point. We don't access problems as such, we respond to them.

jtt wrote:
How would you mesh individuated responses through processes?


I don't want to "mesh" them, because then they wouldn't be "individuated".

jtt wrote:
Process begins with an agreed upon set of assumptions and an agreed upon narrow perspective.


I'd have said that process is an active, creative force, but feel free to show me the error of my ways.

jtt wrote:
I'm not seeing anything different than conventional philosophy here. What am I missing?


That this is an effort to push "conventional philosophy" to its limits, to breaking point.

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Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:33 pm
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
Quote:
We don't "determine" them, they're problems - that's exactly the point. We don't access problems as such, we respond to them.

Really? Perhaps before language developed, but I can't think of anything describable that doesn't involve language. An emotive response is certainly possible, but how does one share that without the use of language?

I've had experiences with others where no words were exchanged, and there was a knowing of shared understanding, but those are few and far between. Moreover, there was no after-the-fact discussion, it was just "in the moment".

I'll confess, I haven't the foggiest how one would ever explore this as a third discourse, except to say that something happened with no further explanation.


Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:12 pm
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
I do not have to accept Spinoza's belief that the whole is God in order to believe in the ecology and economy of a plenitude comprised of an expanding variety of interdependent particulars. Spinoza retains the God concept to justify his belief in teleology. I'm not sure Kant ever reconciled the notion of a God who disposes purpose with a natural world of fortuitous events. Later thinkers avoided this idealistic extreme by thinking that God died or left.
For me, Spinoza attempts to place a transcendent God in an immanent worldview. If that was his project, to reconcile the one and the many and the transcendent and the immanent, his work retains the merit of proposing an organic, dynamic existence in which being is becoming and which is independent of speculation about extraphysical events.
Apologies for my often rash comments about semantics. I enjoy reading Ricoeur, Derrida and others. Perhaps my wholesale interpretation of semantics as predisposed toward mental dissections of dynamic physical continuities is inaccurate. Perhaps our human understanding is dependent on the mind's ability to see progressions in terms of brackets and splices.

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Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:47 pm
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
jtt wrote:
Quote:
We don't "determine" them, they're problems - that's exactly the point. We don't access problems as such, we respond to them.

Really? Perhaps before language developed, but I can't think of anything describable that doesn't involve language. An emotive response is certainly possible, but how does one share that without the use of language?

I've had experiences with others where no words were exchanged, and there was a knowing of shared understanding, but those are few and far between. Moreover, there was no after-the-fact discussion, it was just "in the moment".

I'll confess, I haven't the foggiest how one would ever explore this as a third discourse, except to say that something happened with no further explanation.

Agreed! My cat and I communicate mostly without the need of linguistic translations. We know each other's place and need. It's always here and now with us.

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Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:52 pm
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
Somehow, I feel like I'm missing the point. I'm not trying to be the Luddite, but that is the way it's coming off. I just don't see how one moves from subjective to objective and shares that experience without resorting to language. I'm even willing to allow the murky languages of facial expression, body language, and all the other permutations of human expression. I still don't get it. The third discourse seems to be a very private experience even as we acknowledge that "something" is there.

It reminds me of the story of the monk who was asked if he knew God. He replied, "I did until you said his name." I firmly believe that there is much beyond philosophy and language that we can experience and understand, I just don't see a way to talk about it without destroying it.


Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:41 pm
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
jtt wrote:
I firmly believe that there is much beyond philosophy and language that we can experience and understand, I just don't see a way to talk about it without destroying it.
Quantum™

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Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:07 pm
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
Dammit, Schwagg. I'm having enough trouble getting by in three dimensions. I can write out is, isn't, is/isn't, but I can't wrap myself around it any any useful way. Quantum philosophy... Perhaps that has been the problem with philosophy all along. It is structured in three dimensions along Einsteinian time lines, when reality is quantum which we fail to take into account.

Time for aspirin...


Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:21 pm
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
I'm enjoying rereading Nicholas Humprey's "A History of the Mind". It remains the best biological interpretation of consciousness I've read yet. He begins this work with comment on the McGinn and Nagel objections to accurate description of "subjective" experience. He suggests that our language may not have evolved to the place where we can articulate this experience objectively, even though we are aware of its existence and commonality.
He describes the emergence of "qualia" in an evolutionary process as beginning with an organism's first reactions to external forces that affect its body for good or ill, becoming the full fledged "subjectivity" of brain produced minds. He believes that, in this process, recognition of what is other than the embodied self becomes "objective" understanding. Still, he sees the subjective and objective as dividing into pathways that defy a representation of one in terms of the other.
Humprey's linear descriptions rely on support from the theory of evolution over geological time. I think that reference is a bit extravagant. Surely, we have arrived at a time when we can access the linear delopment of a human from fertiled egg to adult and locate therin the emergence of subjective and objective ways of seeing anddescribing. Ican't see the subjective and objective survival necessities as diverging into contradictory mental content.
Beyond language are the mental experiences of instinct and intuition. Perhaps these are intermediaries between experience and description or, at least, incentives not to rest on our laurals.

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Last edited by Ierrellus on Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:18 pm
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
Tab,
My problem with semanticists began in another forum with a person who informed me of what the capital of a country is and declared this this amounted to indisputable objective fact, having nothing to do with subjectivity. Arrrgh! Leningrad was once St. Petersburg. Atlanta was once Marthasville. I know of no object that is not in a state of change and flux, some slowly, some quickly. This applies to objects, subjects and words.

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Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:30 pm
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
My problem with N. Humprey's fine work is that it appears to me that he accepts a weak mind-body cause and effect dualism while espousing a strong mind-body evolutionary progressive continuum. In his final chapter he laments the Nagel, McGinn, Kripke philosophical mind-body disconnects and asserts that his evolutionary approach is sufficient to show that what is considered mechanical can also be considered qualitatively formative.
Summery 1: The description is not the experience. This does not, however, indicate that the experience cannot evolve into the description.

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Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:58 pm
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
Wow! What a dumbass I can be! I'm rereading Daniel Dennett's "Consciousness Explained" some five years after the first reading. Here and elsewhere I made the stupid statement that when it comes to explaining consciousness Dennett doesn't. Part of my underestimation of this book came from listening to someone who told me that Dennett didn't do it because of his limited references to neuoroscience. Geeze, Dennett is a philosopher. And he's courageous enough to go against the current top espousers of subjective isolationism--Nagel and McGinn.
Dennett proposes the "third discourse" Changeux asks for. Dennett characterizes his approach as "heterphenomenolgy", substantiated as far as possible by functionalism.

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Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:17 pm
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Post Re: Qualia Part I.
Further appreciation of Dennett's "Consciousness Explained"--Dennett is the only philosopher I've read who seeks to complement the philosophy of science and the philosophy of metaphysics. His concept of heterophenomenology is simply that phenomenology requires a subject that interacts with an object, hetero-, not homo-; and that POV's that depend on an isolate subject or object are untenable. He proposes a "multiple drafts" concept of consciousness that considers consciousness as a product of multiple neuronal activities that occur in, and are qualitatively and quantitatively affected by, various brain structures.
He won me over with his objections to the concept of qualia.

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Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:24 pm
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